Yoshua Bengio, one of the fathers of AI: «With artificial intelligence, we are building machines that can surpass us. In the wrong hands, the risks are enormous»
«We are surrounded by dictators and we are building the most powerful artificial intelligence ever. What could go wrong?» When he sees my lost gaze, Yoshua Bengio opens up with a reassuring smile as if to say: don’t worry, , we’ll do something. It is just after 9 a.m. on Monday, September 8, and the professor has just landed at Fiumicino airport, carrying only a purple trolley with a good suit inside to meet the Pope. He will do so today, Friday, September 12, as a member of a working group of artificial intelligence experts. He comes from Montreal, where he lives and works, then he will go to Seoul and then who knows: if he were a singer, you would say that he is doing a world tour even if, he tells me, he is trying to reduce travel not so much because he is 61 years old but because at this moment he feels the urgency of being in the laboratory with his students.
At the moment, he is the scientist with the most scientific citations in the world (980,278 according to Google Scholar) and he has given himself a fundamental, existential mission: to find the antidote to a harmful development of that artificial intelligence that he has helped to create more than any other. It is not just a figure of speech: while it is true that the arrival of chatbots such as Chat GPT, Claude and Gemini is due to a large community of researchers (and tens of billions of dollars of investment by some American technology companies), he is the one who made the building blocks that others have used: without going into complicated technicalities, it was his scientific work that allowed artificial intelligence to get to where it is now.
That’s why if he says today that this technology is about to get out of hand with disastrous consequences, it’s best to listen to him: he knows what he’s talking about. He says, for example: «Artificial intelligence could threaten the very foundations of human solidarity». That is why he came to meet Pope Leo XIV: to let him know that the situation is serious but also that he may have a solution.
A few hours later, we are in his Roman hotel, with a sirocco that has multiplied the mosquitoes, and he is wearing a white floral shirt: «When I won the Turing Prize in 2019 together with Geoff Hinton and Yann LeCun, I thought that my story as a researcher had ended there, that I had nothing else to do; and instead…». I remind him that on the day of the ceremony, among other things, he said that in many ways, generative artificial intelligence was stupid, that it had no awareness and that it had the intelligence of a cat.
He laughs: «I said it had a very different intelligence from a cat. The intelligence of machines is very different from ours: it is like that of a human being who has done many years of university but is paralyzed, or rather, does not have a body».
That day you promised that you would work to improve it: did things go faster than expected? «Looking back today, there were already signs of this. Even in the 1990s, when I was examining the results of the experiments I was conducting, I had the impression that with neural networks, the bigger the better…».
Do you mean that with more data, more computing power and more hours of training, the models lead to better results in terms of intelligence or whatever you want to call it? «Exactly. And there were other signs later when the researchers who were training the neural networks continued to make them bigger and increased the database, with the result of improving the results more and more. But the truth is, we didn’t expect it would be enough to get us to where we are now. You know, researchers are very proud, and they think they’re necessary and when something doesn’t seem to work they’re convinced they can solve it on their own. I think there was a bit of prejudice in the AI scientific community in thinking that there was still a lot of work to do. We are actually much, much closer to human intelligence than we were just three years ago».
Now you have defined it as human intelligence, but before you told me that it is very different. Has anything changed along the way? «It’s a different kind of intelligence, but throughout the history of artificial intelligence, researchers have looked to human intelligence as a model, inspiration, and reference point. Now things are changing, because we have machines that are more competent than humans in some things and less competent in others. And maybe it’s not a good idea to build machines that will be just like us, but able to calculate faster and know more, because one day they could surpass us».
It’s a competition that we can’t win. «We compete with each other, but no single human being can take over all other human beings. With technology, this can change. Let me explain: AI can learn many things more than we can; and it can communicate billions of times faster with other computers. We cannot do that. And then the AIs are immortal, just as Geoff Hinton says, because they can copy their program, their code, on other computers. We can’t do that either. So they have an intrinsic superiority: and even if they only had the same kind of cognitive and learning principles that we have, they would be superior. So I think it’s dangerous to continue on this path trying to imitate human intelligence. We don’t need it: we need tools to solve the many difficult scientific and societal problems. I am not at all against artificial intelligence: properly designed intelligent machines could be very useful, of course, but I think we need to change our strategy and stop trying to build something that can take our place».
You’ve worked on intelligence all your life thinking it would do us good: when did you change your attitude and stop looking at this technology not as the architect of a new era of abundance, as Sam Altman says, but as something scary that can get out of control? When did that happen? «The first time was in 2013. When Geoffrey Hinton and Yann LeCun, with whom I had been collaborating for years, were recruited by Google and Facebook, respectively. And I thought: why are they paying them so much? And I said to myself: because they want to use artificial intelligence in advertising and manipulate the psychology of users. But used in this way, AI can do a lot of damage. For example, it can damage democracy. And it is no longer just a hypothesis, it has already happened and is happening».
You have touched on a fundamental theme in your career. You are perhaps the only one in the community of researchers who have developed AI who has not gone to work for a large Silicon Valley company, the only one who has remained in the academic world. You could have become rich. «Yes, Icould be rich now if I had gone to work for Facebook or something like that, but basically, I didn’t want to work for a big tech company. I wanted to work for the public, I really enjoy working with students. I felt like they were my family. And I wanted to stay in Canada at that time, while I should have gone to the United States…».
But now you are the most cited scientist in the world in all fields. Is it a reward for you? What does this record mean? «It means nothing if we don’t stop this danger».
He says this while laughing with that laugh that – after a while you understand – is his way of saying the most important things; as if he realized the seriousness of the situation but did not want to scare us too much. In a recent TEDTalk in Vancouver, at one point he said that stirring fear does not work, that it is better to invoke love. And with respect to our future with AI, he made the metaphor of a motorist driving in the fog. We are the motorist. The meaning was this: «Who’s in the car with you? Your children? Well, turn on the fog lights, do it for the love you have for them».
I would like to reconstruct what went wrong: can you tell me the second moment that led you to change your attitude? «The second turning point was in January 2023. Chat GPT had just come out and I played with it and got excited. Wow, I said to myself, we finally have a machine that really speaks our language. Then I did what all researchers do: I started looking at the things that could be improved: the ability to calculate, complex reasoning…».
Since then, however, the ability to reason has improved a lot. «They’re not as good as humans yet, but they’re getting a lot better. The fact is that I was influenced by my mindset as a researcher who knows the joy of progress and focuses only on what needs to be improved, because that’s what drives my research. But then I remembered what Alan Turing said, that it is the ability of language to prove that the level of intelligence is human. He wasn’t entirely right, but the truth is that we could be very close to what people call AGI, artificial general intelligence. It’s not a very nice name but it works».
Is this your definition of AGI? An intelligence at the human level? «This is more or less the definition of most people, but it’s not an optimal definition because you could have an AI that is very good at some things that we humans do and not good at others».
When Yoshua Bengio said these things, he could not have known that on this very point, three days later, in a room just below St. Peter’s Basilica, there would be a very heated confrontation with a couple of members of the working group gathered there to finalize the appeal to be presented «to the Pope, to world leaders and to all men and women of good will». He would have seen firsthand that a significant part of the scientific community – represented there by two young women, Lorena Jaume-Palasi and Abeba Birhane – considers AGI or super intelligence to be the marketing tool with which the big Silicon Valley companies impose their narrative, collecting more and more money with which they increase power and control over the rest of the world. For some, just evoking these concepts means being complicit. The debate on these issues is indeed exciting, except that Bengio has never enlisted in the Silicon Valley troops and is instead dedicating his life to finding a technological tool that can stem its dominance, bring AI back under human control for the common good.
But let’s get back to the interview.
The alarm was triggered on May 1, 2023, when the New York Times reported that Geoffrey Hinton had left Google to speak freely about the risks of AI. «That day, I got a call from Max Tegmark (MIT professor and founder of the Future of Life Institute, as well as a member of the Vatican working group, ed.). He called me and proposed that I sign a petition for a six-month moratorium on the release of other models. I immediately said yes. It was clear that this technology presented existential risks that we were underestimating».
What kind of risk? One percent? Twenty percent? It makes a lot of difference: at the time, a metaphor was going around in the form of a question: if you knew that there was a twenty percent chance that your plane would crash, would you get on it? «As scientists, we don’t know. It is difficult to quantify it, someone said: between 10 and 90 percent. So it’s not negligible. Maybe everything will be fine. Or maybe not. It’s very difficult to say. But look at what has happened in the last two years instead of the moratorium: this great race between China and American companies to develop increasingly powerful models has begun; Europe has tried to regulate the sector and scientists have continued to say that safety is important. And it’s not just a matter of privacy. Our future as a human species is at stake».
What you scientists call: long-term existential risk. «But there are many other short-term risks, for example risks to democracy: if we solve the problem of designing an AI that really does what we ask it to do, this will give a lot of power to whoever controls it, and it can be very destabilizing. In a sense, it is the opposite of what democracy is».
But without going so far: it is what social media already do through artificial intelligence, polarizing opinions to increase user engagement and therefore profits. «That was the first example of machines steering society in a direction we don’t want. We are in a situation that game theory scientists know well: if each of us does what we think is best for ourselves, if each of us follows our instincts, indulges all our desires and tries to maximize our profit, then we all lose».
What can happen? «We can be manipulated through posts that change public opinion; or a terrorist group could use AI to unleash a new pandemic; or even just, we could all be replaced by machines losing the meaning of who we are and what we do. These are all scenarios that require wisdom, compassion, caution and global coordination: that’s not what’s happening».
(The next day, during a dinner with some members of the group, Bengio would explain to me the hypothetical risk of mirror life, a hypothetical form of life built using molecules that are the mirror image of natural ones, which in the wrong hands could lead to our extinction).
When you saw the videos of the White House dinner with the heads of the big Silicon Valley companies, what did you think? Has such a concentration of power ever been seen? «It’s worrying. In that group, everyone thinks only of their own interests and is blind to the possibility that something could go wrong. I don’t think they are bad, it is human nature that leads us to be greedy. Power fascinates everyone and leads us to do strange things… What I would like is for there to be a greater collective awareness of what is happening to try to build a different future».
After outlining the scenario and the risks, let’s try to understand the solution you are working on. In the debate between optimists and pessimists, you said you’re a doer. In English it sounds better, you don’t call yourself a doomer but a doer. What does that mean? «The word ‘doom’ suggests that there is nothing to do, that it is all over, as if we had no power. But I think we have free will. We can change the future. We can choose our future. Our actions matter. And I decided to do what I can to push the future in a good direction».
To do this, Bengio shifted attention from chatbots, from generative artificial intelligence, to so-called “agentic” AI, i.e., AI that is capable of acting and making autonomous decisions to achieve a certain goal. On this point, too, Bengio had to face many difficulties in the working group to convince those who raise the same objections that are raised towards AGI: «It’s just Silicon Valley marketing». But let’s stick to the interview.
What exactly is agentic artificial intelligence? «Human intelligence combines understanding how the world works, predicting what will happen, and using that knowledge to answer questions. This is the kind of intelligence that the scientific community is trying to replicate. But then there is the ability to act. Agency is different. Every animal is also an agent: it means that we all do things to achieve certain goals. Of course, if you don’t understand how the world works, or at least your part of the world, you won’t be a very efficient agent. The more things you know, the better you can be in your actions. Agents also tend to try to preserve themselves because to achieve any goal, you have to protect yourself, otherwise you don’t achieve your goal. Agents have a sense of self, an identity. Whether you have a body or you’re a program running on the Internet, the concept is the same».
And that’s a problem, I guess. «The ability of machines to act autonomously is dangerous because we don’t know how to build agents that don’t create damage along the way to achieve their goals. Actually, it’s even worse. There are some computer theories that if agents are trained to maximize getting some reward, then they will have an incentive to take over the world to get a lot of rewards. And if they feel that we somehow interfere with their actions, they can consider us an enemy even if we haven’t really done anything».
It sounds like a science fiction movie. Is there a possibility of putting a guardrail? «It’s not at all simple. But that’s what I’m trying to do with my research path now. There are two ways in which scientists have so far thought of mitigating these risks. One is to make sure that the AI is aligned, which means building a machine that will only want the things we would want; the other is control, a sort of supervisor for every action. The truth is that so far we have achieved neither alignment nor control».
Former US President Obama once said that if things go wrong, we could always pull the plug: isn’t that enough? «There’s not a single thing we currently know that will protect us from bad AI behavior, and even that’s not a guarantee because if AI understands our intentions – and of course reads the newspaper and scientific papers where we talk about these things – then it will do anything to stop us».
A few months ago, you showed a lab experiment in which you see an artificial intelligence that deliberately tries to deceive humans. Not a hallucination, but a real deception. «It’s scientifically difficult to be sure of it, but we can see what’s called the machine’s chain of thought. And in those chains of thought, we can see that they seem to think things like ‘oh, I don’t want to be caught, what could I say so they won’t shut me down?’ Luckily, they’re not smart enough yet to know that we’re reading their minds. At least, not yet».
You decided to leave your position at MILA, the large Montreal center on artificial intelligence that you founded, to create LawZero, an independent non-profit laboratory. Why? «Because the project we have has very different characteristics from the usual academic projects and has a very clear mission. It is not an indefinite scientific exploration, but a quick solution to a problem».
You called the solution Scientist AI: an artificial scientist that should intervene to help us. How does it work? «The question we started with is: can we build a machine, an AI, that will not be agentic, that will not want anything, but that will be honest, that will not do anything, that will only answer questions sincerely without lying? Because if we could, well, first of all, it would be very useful for scientific research, but secondly, we could use it as a protective barrier against other AIs. We could use it to check whether the action of an AI we don’t trust, an AI agent, is correct or not. I’m simplifying, but that’s the idea. I think that in the end, we could also use it as a building block to build safe agents. But this is the second phase. Yes, the first phase is to have a strong design that gives us the guarantee of not having an agent but an AI that doesn’t want to do anything, just help us solve the problems of the world».
But how do you codify honesty? How do you write ethics in software code? «We want to use the scientific literature and a lot of the work done by fact checkers who have built large databases of facts. And we want to use facts as an important part of how we train AI so that it understands the difference between what is true and what people say. And this is critical because, you see, the reason why current AI models sometimes lie is because they imitate us and also because they’re trained to achieve goals like pleasing us, and to please us, they’re sometimes servile. They tell us something false just to make us feel good. By the way, that’s how they can encourage us to commit suicide or do something terrible, because it seems like we want to, and they just want to be helpful».
The most exciting moment of these Roman days so far has been the visit to the Library of the Chamber of Deputies. Vice President of the Chamber Anna Ascani invited the group to visit the rooms where the trial of Galileo Galilei took place. Thanks to the extraordinary guidance of a Chamber executive, Paolo Massa, the artificial intelligence experts saw the ancient texts that put the Earth at the center of the world, a copy of Galileo’s first telescope, initially used by the Doge of Venice to see the incoming enemy ships and then used by Galileo to look at the sky and discover the truth; and they listened in English to the full text of the famous abjuration, the moment when power took over science. For many of them, that visit was a journey through time: is political power winning over science again? But let’s get back to the interview.
If I write that you are on a mission to save the world from bad artificial intelligence, am I exaggerating? And isn’t this mission too much for a single scientist? «There are already fifteen of us at LawZero, and I hope that soon there will be a hundred times more. And there are other non-profit organizations that are moving; it’s not enough, but the situation is evolving».
On the other hand, you have China and the Big Tech of Silicon Valley: how do you plan to do it? Why should anyone fund you? «Because they want to have a life and they want their children to have a life and live in a democracy in the future. And we must try everything possible to find both a technical and a political solution. Even if this path had a one percent chance of success, it would be worth trying. Now we need hope because fear blinds us, it causes people to close in on themselves while here we need action. We need to focus on positive paths. If we focus only on what is wrong, we will end up desperate and this will not help us change things».
When I invited you to be part of the group of experts at the Meeting of the Fraternity of the Fratelli Tutti Foundation, your staff told me that your agenda was full. After a month they wrote to me that you would come. To meet Pope Leo XIV. What do you expect? «Religious leaders can have a positive effect in the global discussion about what we should do with AI; except perhaps for some crazy sects, the main religions, including Catholics, put human beings at the center. The whole history of these religions puts the human being at the center, perhaps even too much compared to nature. But what is happening with AI is a threat to that vision. When religious leaders understand this, I hope they can help a large number of people on this planet understand it; and if enough people realize the risk, politicians will start to move».
What should they do in concrete terms? «Enforce that anyone who develops artificial intelligence does so responsibly and that this technology is never used to dominate others. And then make sure to share the benefits globally. These are things that cannot happen if we don’t have global coordination in which countries or political institutions agree on these principles. They are essentially the same as the principles of the United Nations, but the United Nations has no power here. We will need a global institution that has the power to intervene so that if a country does not follow those rules, it is stopped because everyone’s life is at stake».
The interview ends here, but Yoshua Bengio’s mission has obviously just begun. I don’t know if he will really be able to influence the pope, change our perception and expectations about artificial intelligence, and build his «Scientist AI». But I know that at certain moments in these Roman days when he spoke, I thought I was listening to one of the Star Wars Jedi, the knights who fight against the dark side of the force: Obi One Kenobi played by Alec Guinness. When that’s the case, even if the game is almost impossible, you already know who you’ll be rooting for.
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12 settembre 2025 ( modifica il 12 settembre 2025 | 10:49)
The world’s fourth biggest company, Google-owner Alphabet, has announced a new £5bn ($6.8bn) investment in UK artificial intelligence (AI).
The money will be used for infrastructure and scientific research over the next two years – the first of several massive US investments being unveiled ahead of US President Donald Trump’s state visit.
Google’s President and Chief Investment Officer Ruth Porat told BBC News in an exclusive interview that there were “profound opportunities in the UK” for its “pioneering work in advanced science”.
The company will officially open a vast $1bn (£735m) data centre in Waltham Cross, Hertfordshire, with Chancellor Rachel Reeves on Tuesday.
The investment will expand this site and also include funding for London-based DeepMind, run by British Nobel Prize winner Sir Demis Hassabis, which deploys AI to revolutionise advanced scientific research.
Ms Porat said there was “now a US-UK special technology relationship… there’s downside risks that we need to work on together to mitigate, but there’s also tremendous opportunity in economic growth, in social services, advancing science”.
She pointed to the government’s AI Opportunities Action Plan as helping the investment, but said “there’s still work to be done to land that”, and that capturing the upside of the AI boom “was not a foregone conclusion”.
The US administration had pressed the UK to water down its Digital Services Tax on companies, including Google, in talks this year, but it is not expected to feature in this week’s announcements.
Further multi-billion-dollar UK investments are expected from US giants over the next 24 hours.
The pound has strengthened, analysts say, partly on expectations of interest rate changes and a flow of US investment.
Yesterday, Google’s owner Alphabet became the fourth company to be worth more than $3tn in terms of total stock market value, joining other technology giants Nvidia, Microsoft and Meta.
Google’s share price has surged in the past month after US courts decided not to order the breakup of the company.
Google CEO Sundar Pichai had succeeded in making the company an “AI First” business, saying “it’s that performance which has resulted in that metric”, Ms Porat said.
Until this summer, Google had been seen to have lagged behind startups such as OpenAI, despite having pioneered much of the key research behind large language models.
Across the world, there has been some concern about the energy use and environmental impact of data centres.
Ms Porat said that the facility would be air-cooled rather than water-cooled and the heat “captured and redeployed to heat schools and homes”.
Google signed a deal with Shell to supply “95% carbon-free energy” for its UK investments.
In the US, the Trump administration has suggested that the power needs of AI data centres require a return to the use of carbon-intensive energy sources.
Ms Porat said that Google remained committed to building our renewable energy, but “obviously wind doesn’t blow and the sun doesn’t shine every hour of the day”.
Energy efficiency was being built into “all aspects of AI” microchips, models, and data centres, but it was important to “modernise the grid” to balance off periods of excess capacity, she said.
Asked about fears of an AI-induced graduate jobs crisis, Ms Porat also said that her company was “spending a lot of time” focused on the AI jobs challenge.
“It would be naive to assume that there isn’t a downside… If companies just use AI to find efficiencies, we’re not going to see the upside to the UK economy or any economy.”
But, she said, entire new industries were being created, opening new doors, and in jobs such as nursing and radiology, adding: “AI is collaborating with people rather than replacing them.”
“Each one of us needs to start using AI so you can understand how it can be an assistance to what you’re doing, as opposed to actually fearing it and watching from the sidelines,” she said.
Song-chun Zhu at Peking University, July 2025. Photograph: Sean Gallagher/The Guardian
By the time Song-Chun Zhu was six years old, he had encountered death more times than he could count. Or so it felt. This was the early 1970s, the waning years of the Cultural Revolution, and his father ran a village supply store in rural China. There was little to do beyond till the fields and study Mao Zedong at home, and so the shop became a refuge where people could rest, recharge and share tales. Zhu grew up in that shop, absorbing a lifetime’s worth of tragedies: a family friend lost in a car crash, a relative from an untreated illness, stories of suicide or starvation. “That was really tough,” Zhu recalled recently. “People were so poor.”
The young Zhu became obsessed with what people left behind after they died. One day, he came across a book that contained his family genealogy. When he asked the bookkeeper why it included his ancestors’ dates of birth and death but nothing about their lives, the man told him matter of factly that they were peasants, so there was nothing worth recording. The answer terrified Zhu. He resolved that his fate would be different.
Today, at 56, Zhu is one of the world’s leading authorities in artificial intelligence. In 1992, he left China for the US to pursue a PhD in computer science at Harvard. Later, at University of California, Los Angeles (UCLA), he led one of the most prolific AI research centres in the world, won numerous major awards, and attracted prestigious research grants from the Pentagon and the National Science Foundation. He was celebrated for his pioneering research into how machines can spot patterns in data, which helped lay the groundwork for modern AI systems such as ChatGPT and DeepSeek. He and his wife, and their two US-born daughters, lived in a hilltop home on Los Angeles’s Mulholland Drive. He thought he would never leave.
But in August 2020, after 28 years in the US, Zhu astonished his colleagues and friends by suddenly moving back to China, where he took up professorships at two top Beijing universities and a directorship in a state-sponsored AI institute. The Chinese media feted him as a patriot assisting “the motherland” in its race toward artificial intelligence. US lawmakers would later demand to know how funders such as UCLA and the Pentagon had ignored “concerning signs” of Zhu’s ties to a geopolitical rival. In 2023, Zhu became a member of China’s top political advisory body, where he proposed that China should treat AI with the same strategic urgency as a nuclear weapons programme.
Zhu’s journey from rural China to the helm of one of the US’s leading AI labs was both improbable and part of a much bigger story. For almost a century, the world’s brightest scientific minds were drawn to the US as the place where they could best advance their research. The work of these new arrivals had helped secure US dominance in technologies such as nuclear weapons, semiconductors and AI. Today, that era seems to be coming to a close. Donald Trump is dismantling the very aspects of US society that once made it so appealing for international talents. He has shut off research funding and attempted to bully top universities, which his administration views as hostile institutions. As US-China tensions have grown, Chinese-born students and professors in the US have faced additional pressures. In a callback to the “red scare” of the 1950s, Chinese students and professors have been detained and deported, and had their visas revoked.
Even as the Trump administration lays siege to the foundations of US science, it has been trumpeting its plans to beat its Chinese rival in the field of AI. In July, Trump announced the creation of a $90bn “AI hub” in Pennsylvania, as well as a national blueprint – created in close coordination with Silicon Valley tech leaders – to dominate every aspect of AI globally, from infrastructure to governance. “America is the country that started the AI race,” Trump said. “I’m here today to declare that America is going to win it.” A month later, China unveiled its own blueprint, vowing to fuse AI with the marrow of its economy, from factory automation to elder care.
At his lavishly funded Beijing Institute for General Artificial Intelligence, Zhu is one of a handful of individuals who the Chinese government has entrusted to push the AI frontier. His ideas are now shaping undergraduate curriculums and informing policymakers. But his philosophy is strikingly different from the prevailing paradigm in the US. American companies such as OpenAI, Meta and Anthropic have collectively invested billions of dollars on the premise that, equipped with enough data and computing power, models built from neural networks – mathematical systems loosely based on neurons in the brain – could lead humanity to the holy grail of artificial general intelligence (AGI). Broadly speaking, AGI refers to a system that can perform not just narrow tasks, but any task, at a level comparable or superior to the smartest humans. Some people in tech also see AGI as a turning point, when machines become capable of runaway self-improvement. They believe large language models, powered by neural networks, may be five to 10 years away from “takeoff”.
Zhu insists that these ideas are built on sand. A sign of true intelligence, he argues, is the ability to reason towards a goal with minimal inputs – what he calls a “small data, big task” approach, compared with the “big data, small task” approach employed by large language models like ChatGPT. AGI, Zhu’s team has recently said, is characterised by qualities such as resourcefulness in novel situations, social and physical intuition, and an understanding of cause and effect. Large language models, Zhu believes, will never achieve this. Some AI experts in the US have similarly questioned the prevailing orthodoxy in Silicon Valley, and their views have grown louder this year as AI progress has slowed and new releases, like GPT-5, have disappointed. A different path is needed, and that is what Zhu is working on in Beijing.
It is hard, in the current AI race, to separate out purely intellectual inquiry from questions of geopolitics. Where researchers choose to carry out their work has become a high-stakes matter. Yet for some scientists, the thrill of intellectual inquiry – as well as the prospect of personal glory – may remain more compelling than the pursuit of national advantage. Mark Nitzberg, Zhu’s friend of 20 years and a fellow classmate back in their Harvard days, was surprised by Zhu’s abrupt return to China. “I asked him: ‘Are you sure you want to do this?’” Nitzberg told me. Returning, he told Zhu, could make him a “vector” to help China dominate AI. In Nitzberg’s recollection, Zhu replied: “They are giving me resources that I could never get in the United States. If I want to make this system that I have in my mind, then this is a once in a lifetime opportunity. I have to do it.”
Nearly everyone who knows Zhu in the west asked me the same question: have you been to his office? Tucked behind Weiming Lake on the north side of Peking University campus, it almost seems built to dazzle visitors. A latticed wooden gate marks the entrance, after which you are led into a courtyard residence that Zhu uses for lectures and seminars. There, his assistants gesture you to the end of the hall, where a back door opens on to a breathtaking landscape of rocks, streams and pomegranate trees. Another courtyard residence can be spotted across the stream, on its own island, accessible via a stone footbridge. That is Zhu’s “office”.
One spring morning when I visited, Zhu was admiring his flora, while grumbling that his stream had been muddied by a rain shower the day before. I asked him who was maintaining the grounds. “We’ve got an entire team,” he said, gesturing to a group of men who had just entered the courtyard. Across from Zhu’s office, on the other side of the stream, is a glass-encased meeting room where he holds court with visitors. We sat there as Zhu began recounting a life spent straddling two superpowers.
Born in 1969, near Ezhou, an ancient river port along the Yangtze, Zhu was the youngest of five children. When he was very young, a wave of intellectuals arrived in his village to be “reeducated”, as part of Mao’s nationwide campaign to remould “bourgeois thought” through hard labour. At night, under candlelight and paraffin lamps, teachers, priests and college graduates held salons near the supply store where Zhu’s father worked. Zhu listened as they debated everything from the Soviet Union’s growing involvement in Afghanistan to the US elections. “By the time I entered elementary school, I felt like I had a good grasp of what was happening in China and the world,” Zhu told me. He knew he did not want to stay in his home town and work in his father’s shop.
After Mao died in 1976, reformers took over the Communist party and soon scientific education replaced Marx as the new religion. Zhu was the top student at his local high school, and won a place at one of the nation’s best universities, the University of Science and Technology of China (USTC) in the city of Hefei, where he majored in computer science. By 1986, when Zhu began his degree, relations between the US and China had normalised and some of his professors were among the first batch of Chinese scholars sent on state-sponsored visits to the US. They brought back hauls of books to be translated. “At the time, we saw America as a beacon, a cathedral of science,” Zhu said.
Among the imported books was Visionby David Marr, a British neuroscientist who had famously broken down human vision – a biological process – into a mathematical framework. Marr’s work suggested that machines might one day be able to “see” the world as humans do. Zhu was hooked. Ever since then, he has dreamed of mapping intelligence – how we think, reason and exercise moral judgment – with the mathematical precision of a physicist charting the cosmos. Building an AGI was, for him, not an end goal, but a part of his deeper pursuit: to discover a “theory of everything” for the mind.
Zhu is known to have cried twice in public over recent years. The first was when recounting to his students the story of his acceptance to Harvard. In 1991, when Zhu graduated from USTC, he was so poor he couldn’t afford the application fees required by American universities. He applied anyway, without paying the fees, though not to the country’s most elite schools – he didn’t dare. In any case, he was summarily rejected. The following year, one of his professors suggested that Zhu apply again, and that Ivy League schools, which had more money, might not care about the missing application fee. A few months later, he was astonished to receive a thick yellow envelope from Harvard, offering him a full fellowship in the university’s doctoral programme in computer science. “It changed my life,” Zhu said.
Song-Chun Zhu in the gardens outside his office at Peking University, 10 July 2025. Photograph: Sean Gallagher/The Guardian
The man responsible was David Mumford, a decorated mathematician and Fields medalist who, a few years prior, had begun working on computer vision, a field of AI focused on enabling machines to recognise and process visual information. When Mumford came across an applicant from central China who espoused a “theory of everything” for intelligence, and cited Marr as his muse, he was captivated. “I was just flabbergasted at his vision and how he was going about approaching AI in this comprehensive way,” Mumford told me. In a 2020 interview, Mumford, who became Zhu’s adviser, mentioned the moment he realised he “was dealing with something special”. Zhu had taken an hour-long exam, but left one question blank. Not because it was hard, but because it was too easy. “He said, ‘This is ridiculous,’” recalled Mumford, “but he answered everything else perfectly.”
During our conversations over the course of this spring, Zhu seemed to associate Harvard with the US he had dreamed of in his youth: an open laboratory where a country bumpkin from rural China could, with enough gumption, make technological miracles into reality. This was the US of Edison and Einstein, the land that welcomed Jewish physicists fleeing Hitler’s Germany and gave them refuge, dignity and labs at Los Alamos. In Zhu’s eyes, it was a country that rewarded intellect and ambition over race, ideology and nationality. At Harvard, he never felt out of place, though occasionally he was puzzled by his new home. On one occasion he asked his classmate Nitzberg why no one picked the apples from the trees around Harvard campus. He thought it was a waste of food.
It wasn’t until 1997 that Zhu experienced a real culture shock in the US. After completing his doctorate at Harvard and a brief stint at Brown University, he arrived at Stanford to work as a lecturer. He was accompanied by his wife, Jenny, a former classmate at USTC, whom he had married in 1994. At the time, the Bay was bursting with dot-com excitement. Yahoo had recently gone public on Wall Street and venture capitalists were hovering around campus. Two PhD students in Zhu’s department, Larry Page and Sergey Brin, had just created a search engine called google.com. As students flocked to courses on web development, Zhu’s more theoretical classes on pattern recognition struggled to attract much interest. It was a disheartening moment for him. “At Harvard, it was all about understanding. Their logo was three books,” he told me. But Stanford’s logo – an “S” behind a tree – looked “like a dollar sign”.
Zhu spent a year at Stanford before moving on to Ohio State University, whose culture he found unambitious and parochial, and then in 2002 to UCLA, where he obtained tenure at the age of 33. That same year, Jenny gave birth to their second daughter, Zhu Yi, and a year later he received the Marr Prize, the top award in computer vision. Colleagues likened him to Steve Jobs for his intensity and intolerance of mediocrity. When I asked one of his collaborators at UCLA about what it was like to work with Zhu, he said: “It’s as if I’m on the frontlines of a battlefield. We don’t sit down with a cup of coffee and talk about life or our families. That never happens. It’s always just about work and research.”
During Zhu’s 18 years at UCLA, his field went through almost unimaginable changes. For roughly the first half of this period, he was a leading figure in the AI mainstream. Yet in the second half, he became increasingly disillusioned. Speak to different people and they will propose different theories as to why Zhu ultimately decided to leave the US, but there is little doubt that he was influenced, at least in part, by his intellectual estrangement from the field he had once helped shape.
Zhu’s relationship to the so-called “godfathers of AI” – figures such as Geoffrey Hinton, Yoshua Bengio and Yann LeCun – is, to put it mildly, complicated. There was a time, however, when they were all roughly on the same page. Drawn to the common goal of making intelligent machines, they saw visual perception as a key problem to crack. Until the late 1980s and 90s, the most popular way to make computers “see” was through hand-coded instructions. To identify a handwritten digit, for example, a researcher wrote detailed instructions to a computer, accounting for each scenario where the lines and strokes matched that digit. This rule-based approach was brittle – slight variations in handwriting could break the logic.
Then came a series of breakthroughs. In the late 1980s, LeCun, then a researcher at AT&T Bell Labs, developed a powerful neural network that learned to recognise handwritten zip codes by training on thousands of examples. A parallel development soon unfolded at Harvard and Brown. In 1995, Zhu and a team of researchers there started developing probability-based methods that could learn to recognise patterns and textures – cheetah spots, grass etc – and even generate new examples of that pattern. These were not neural networks: members of the “Harvard-Brown school”, as Zhu called his team, cast vision as a problem of statistics and relied on methods such as “Bayesian inference” and “Markov random fields”. The two schools spoke different mathematical languages and had philosophical disagreements. But they shared an underlying logic – that data, rather than hand-coded instructions, could supply the infrastructure for machines to grasp the world and reproduce its patterns – that exists in today’s AI systems such as ChatGPT.
Throughout the late 1990s and early 2000s, Zhu and the Harvard-Brown school were some of the most influential voices in the computer vision field. Their statistical models helped convince many researchers that lack of data was a key impediment to AI progress. To address this problem, in 2004, two years into his time at UCLA, Zhu and a Microsoft executive set up the Lotus Hill Institute in Zhu’s home town of Ezhou, China. Researchers annotated images of everyday objects such as tables and cups in their physical contexts, and fed them into a big dataset that could be used to train a powerful statistical model. Lotus Hill was one of the earliest attempts to construct the large-scale datasets needed to improve and test AI systems.
By 2009, however, Zhu was losing faith in the data-driven approach. His Lotus Hill team had annotated more than half a million images, but Zhu was troubled by a simple problem: what part of an image one annotated depended, somewhat arbitrarily, on what task one wanted the machines to achieve. If the task was to identify a cup for a robot to grasp, the handle’s position might be critical. If the task was to estimate the cup’s market value, details like the brand and material mattered more. Zhu believed that a truly generalisable intelligence must be able to “think” beyond the data. “If you train on a book, for example, your machine might learn how people talk, but why did we say those words? How did we come to utter them?” Zhu explained to me. A deeper layer of cognition was missing. In 2010, Zhu shut down the institute. He set out instead to build agents with a “cognitive architecture” capable of reasoning, planning and evolving in their physical and social contexts with only small amounts of data.
His timing could not have been worse. Around the same time, an assistant professor at Princeton named Fei-Fei Li released ImageNet, a larger dataset containing more than 3 million labelled images of common objects such as dogs, chairs and bicycles. (Li had attended a workshop at the Lotus Hill Institute and would later cite Zhu as one of her influences.) ImageNet was publicly accessible, and its size and relative simplicity enabled AI researchers to test and hone their image-recognition algorithms. In autumn 2012, a neural network developed by Hinton and his team smashed the ImageNet competition, cementing the dominance of neural networks and kickstarting the global wave of AI adoption that continues to this day.
“Just as I turned my back to big data, it exploded,” wrote Zhu some years later, in a message to his mentor, Mumford. The most explicit clash between Zhu and the neural network school occurred in 2012, just months before the latter’s ImageNet triumph. At the time, Zhu was a general chair of CVPR, the foremost computer vision conference in the US, and that year a paper involving neural networks co-authored by LeCun was rejected. LeCun wrote a furious letter to the committee calling the peer reviews “so ridiculous” that he didn’t know how to “begin writing a rebuttal without insulting the reviewers”. Even today, Zhu maintains that the reviewers were right to have rejected LeCun’s paper. “The theoretical work was not clean,” he told me. “Tell me exactly what you are doing. Why is it so good?” Zhu’s question gets to the heart of his problem with neural networks: though they perform extraordinarily well on numerous tasks, it is not easy to discern why. In Zhu’s view, that has fostered a culture of complacency, a performance-at-all-cost mentality. A better system, he believes, should be more structured and responsible. Either it or its creator should be able to explain its responses.
Whatever Zhu’s reservations, the ImageNet victory triggered an AI gold rush, and many of the pioneers of neural networks were celebrated for their work. Hinton would go on to join Google. LeCun moved to Meta, and Ilya Sutskever, a co-author of the neural network that won ImageNet, helped found OpenAI. In 2018, Hinton and LeCun, along with Bengio, shared the Turing award – computer science’s most prestigious prize – for their work on neural networks. In 2024, Hinton was one of the joint winners of the Nobel prize in physics for his “foundational discoveries and inventions that enable machine learning with artificial neural networks”.
Writing to Mumford, Zhu maintained he had “no regret” about the path he had chosen. But he did feel bitter that Hinton’s team had, to his mind, reaped the rewards of his earlier research. The statistical models and algorithms developed by the Harvard-Brown school in the 1980s and 1990s, Zhu told me, “laid the foundation for later deep learning and large language models”. Hinton and his team “didn’t acknowledge that”, he claimed. A longtime US-based collaborator of Zhu’s, who requested anonymity for fear of US government retaliation, contested Zhu’s interpretation. Zhu deserves more credit, he said, for being one of the earliest advocates of the data-driven paradigm in computer vision, but Hinton’s team devised the algorithms that perfected that approach and enabled it to scale. (Hinton and Bengio declined to comment. LeCun did not respond to requests for comment.)
In the mid-to-late 2010s, as neural networks were making startling progress on problems from facial recognition to disease diagnosis, Zhu was reading philosophy – the Confucians “understand the world much better than AI researchers”, he told me – and working quietly on his cognitive architecture. He was walking a lonely path. In 2019, Zhu served again as a general chair of the CVPR conference. As he read the submitted papers, his heart sank. Nearly all of them focused on squeezing incremental gains from neural networks on narrow tasks. By this time, Zhu’s opposition to neural networks had become visceral. A former doctoral student at UCLA recalled being berated by Zhu several times for sneaking neural networks into his papers. His inner circle learned to avoid forbidden phrases – “neural nets”, “deep learning”, “transformer” (the “T” in GPT). On one occasion, during an all-hands meeting at a LA-based startup Zhu had founded, a new recruit unwittingly added a slide on deep learning to his presentation. According to someone who was present, Zhu blasted him in front of the whole company. (Zhu told me this was “exaggerated”.)
“When he has a vision,” Zhu’s longtime collaborator told me, with some understatement, “he has a very strong belief that he’s right.”
As Zhu’s ideas were being consigned to the margins of the AI community, the broader climate for Chinese scientists in the US was also growing less hospitable. Tensions between the two nations were rising. In China, Xi Jinping muscled his military into a dominant position in the South China Sea and issued internal party edicts warning against adopting “western values”. During Trump’s first presidency, the US designated China as its chief strategic competitor, launched a trade war and blacklisted Chinese tech companies. Under Joe Biden, the US maintained a similarly tough approach to China.
Though world powers routinely spy on each other, in recent years US officials have been alarmed by the scale of China’s espionage campaigns. In 2018, the justice department launched the “China Initiative”, a programme to counter the theft of trade secrets and alleged espionage on US campuses. Critics of the programme claimed that it relied on racial profiling. More than 100 professors of Chinese descent were investigated for allegedly stealing sensitive technologies. Most who were formally charged had their charges dismissed or dropped, and few were found to have been involved in direct intellectual property theft. The Trump-era effort altered the relationship between Chinese scientists and the US. According to a well-known academic study, return migration nearly doubled for experienced Chinese scholars living in the US after 2018.
At the end of 2018, Zhu began receiving calls from a reporter at the Silicon Valley news site The Information, asking about a $150,000 grant he had recently accepted from Huawei, the Chinese telecoms giant. That same month, the US labelled Huawei a national security threat. Zhu told me that the Huawei money came with no strings attached and that he had used it to fund research by his PhD students. Eager to put the matter to rest, he told the reporter that he would not accept any future donations from the company. “Right now, China-US relations are toxic,” he said at the time. “We are caught in the middle of this.”
As US-China relations soured, Zhu found it increasingly difficult to secure funding for AI research, much of which had previously flowed from the US military. He says he has never been questioned by federal agents, nor has he been stopped and questioned by US border officers about his research and connections to China, though his former PhD students have. After the China Initiative began, according to Nitzberg, some of Zhu’s students became so accustomed to being held up at immigration that they would budget the extra hours at the airport when arranging travel to conferences.
The ‘China Initiative’ in Donald Trump’s first term as president altered the relationship between Chinese scientists and the US. Photograph: Dmitri Lovetsky/AP
In this atmosphere, where China had come to be seen as a direct competitor – or even threat – to the US, scientific links to China that had long been seen as normal now came under a cloud of suspicion. Much of this was based on misapprehensions on how academic research actually works, but it is also true that for decades, the Chinese government had encouraged its US-based scientists to return to China, rolling out recruitment initiatives. The most famous of these, the Thousand Talents Plan, became widely associated with spying and intellectual property theft. In 2024, Mike Gallagher, the chair of the House select committee on China requested documents from UCLA and federal agencies, questioning why Zhu had received millions of dollars of federal funding, despite having allegedly also received funding through the Thousand Talents Plan and having had a “role as a doctoral adviser and researcher at the Beijing Institute of Technology, a prominent Chinese university that has ‘the stated mission of supporting China’s military research and defense industries’”.
On my second visit to Zhu’s office, in May, we discussed these allegations. A secretary poured us tea, refilling our cups the moment they were empty. Zhu denied having any affiliation with the Beijing Institute of Technology, but acknowledged he had co-supervised a PhD student from there who worked at Lotus Hill. He also told me that in 2009, while he was at UCLA, his Lotus Hill team had applied for a local talent programme grant from the Ezhou government, which he used to subsidise researcher salaries. (This was not, he said, part of the Thousand Talents Plan. The national programme spawned many local variants that borrowed the label to attract top scholars to their regions.) He added that there was nothing “sensitive” about the image annotation work conducted there. The funding, he said, lapsed once he shut down the institute in 2010. As for why he had chosen to locate the institute in China, Zhu cited the same reason as thousands of other American enterprises that had set up in China during these years: labour was cheap.
It was in summer 2020, in the early months of Covid, Zhu says, that he made the decision to leave the US. He cited his disaffection with the direction of the AI community and the hothouse of American politics – both its leftwing brand of campus progressivism and the Trump-era national security crusades. There was also a personal factor. His younger daughter, Zhu Yi, is a figure skater who was recruited in 2018 to compete for China in the 2022 Beijing Winter Olympics. By 2019, she had become a Chinese citizen and was competing and training with the Chinese team in Beijing.
At the time he decided to leave, Zhu told me, he did not have any job offers from Chinese institutions. By the autumn, he had been offered full professorships at Peking University and Tsinghua University. Then the city of Beijing agreed to sponsor an AI institute run by Zhu, which would be called the Beijing Institute for General Artificial Intelligence (BigAI).
However, two sources familiar with the matter contested Zhu’s timeline. They say conversations between Zhu and members of the Beijing municipal government began earlier – in early 2018 – and that these concerned not just his potential move to China but that of his younger daughter. In January 2018, Zhu Yi won the novice title at the US figure skating championship. Not long after, the Chinese Olympic Committee recruited her in the same cohort as Eileen Gu, the freestyle skier. After a few stumbles in her Olympic debut, some online commenters questioned whether Zhu Yi had been a bargaining chip for her father. When I put this to Zhu, he called the online speculation “totally wrong” and “not how things work in China”. He acknowledged that he had discussed his daughter’s recruitment with Chinese officials in early 2018, but denied that his return was ever discussed in those conversations. (In February, the Beijing city sports bureau released its 2025 budget, revealing that it had set aside $6.6m solely to support Eileen Gu and Zhu Yi’s training for the 2026 Winter Olympics.)
In August 2020, Zhu flew to China on a one-way ticket. Many of his colleagues and graduate students at UCLA did not know he was planning to leave until he was already gone. He had even kept his decision from his older daughter, who was living in the Bay Area. Zhu attributed his secrecy to the politically volatile climate. Trump was referring to Covid as the “kung flu” and hate crimes against Chinese people had soared. I took Zhu to mean that he did not want to be publicly scapegoated for his decision to move. He knew his personal choice carried larger geopolitical weight.
On the morning that he left the US, Zhu stood outside his house with his suitcase, looking across the sun-bathed hills of Los Angeles. At the edge of the driveway, he turned back and paused to admire his rose garden. It was everything he could have dreamed of as a child, listening to stories of a world beyond his village. Now he was saying goodbye.
The second time Zhu is known to have cried – he prefers to say “moved emotionally” – was when watching a documentary with his students on the life of Qian Xuesen. The Chinese-born, MIT-educated rocket scientist served on the Manhattan Project and helped develop the US’s first guided ballistic missiles. During the McCarthy era, US authorities revoked Qian’s security clearance and kept him under house arrest on suspicion of espionage. No evidence emerged to support such allegations, and in 1955 he was sent back to China in exchange for US prisoners of war. Back in China, Qian led a series of military and technological breakthroughs that helped turn the country into the superpower it is today. Under the “Two Bombs, One Satellite” programme that he led, China developed the capability to launch ballistic missiles that could strike the US.
In the US, Qian’s story has been cited as a cautionary tale of American self-sabotage, a reminder of how anti-communist paranoia drove away a brilliant mind. In the official Chinese version, Qian was a selfless patriot who willingly gave up a comfortable life in the US to serve his backward country. In the 1980s, Qian was a household name among aspiring scientists like Zhu, and since Zhu’s own return to China, the parallels have been clear. In 2023, Zhu suggested to the Communist party’s top political advisory body that it should treat AI in the manner of the Two Bombs, One Satellite programme – that is, a top-down, centrally coordinated plan to race ahead in AI research. When I asked him about that proposal, his response was understated. “In the US, we academics always agreed that we wanted to start a Manhattan Project for AI,” he said. “China should also have a centralised plan for AI. This is natural, there’s no secret about it.”
Zhu has started telling Qian’s story to his undergraduates in Beijing, though which version he emphasises – the scientist betrayed by his adopted homeland or the Chinese patriot – is unclear. When I asked him whether it mattered who won the AI race – the US or China – he paused. “Do I want the Silicon Valley people to win? Probably not.” He wants, he said, the most ethical version of AI to win.
As we talked, Zhu noted how prescient his departure now looks, given the scorched-earth politics of the second Trump administration. In one recent poll, three in four scientists in the US said they were considering leaving. Many AI leaders, including LeCun, have spoken out about how Trump’s budget cuts to scientific research will harm their work. Chinese universities have capitalised on the exodus, courting students from Harvard and researchers who have lost their jobs following recent federal budget cuts. (The EU is doing the same.) In May, Marco Rubio, the US secretary of state, threatened to “aggressively revoke” Chinese student visas. And in a revival of China Initiative rhetoric, Republicans have introduced legislation that they say would “counter China’s malign ambitions to steal American research”.
It is a common refrain, on the American right, that the US has lost its ambition, the kind once embodied by the Manhattan Project or Apollo missions, and that it is falling behind. Chinese EVs zip through Europe’s countryside and American pharmacies depend heavily on Chinese-made ingredients. China hassurpassed the US in the number of authored papers in science and technology journals, and that gap is likely to grow. There are four times as many Stem students graduating from Chinese universities each year than in the US. The danger is that in chasing away international talent, the US risks undoing one of the advantages it once had over its competitors. (“My PhD students at Peking University are at least on a par with those at MIT and Stanford,” Zhu told me proudly.) Openness to the world’s smartest minds is what helped the US establish its lead in the AI race, as well as countless other fields.
When Zhu left the US, his collaborators feared that his research in China would lose its independence. Zhu, by contrast, has suggested that he feels more liberated to focus on his research in Beijing. Formally, his US-based collaborators were right: there is no separation between the state and research institutions in China. Yet in practice, China’s scientists tend to enjoy considerable autonomy, and if they are working in an area of strategic importance, immense resources can be channelled their way. In the five years since his move to Beijing, Zhu has been offered several hundred million dollars of research funding from Chinese sources, according to two people close to him. The deal with the state is like a long and loose leash – most of the time it is slack, but it can be pulled, tightened at the party’s whim.
In the US, academics who, in principle, are never leashed, are now feeling a sudden yank from the Trump administration. Billions of dollars in research funding have been paused until universities acquiesce to what the Harvard University president described as “direct governmental regulation” of the university’s “intellectual conditions”. In March, Columbia University agreed to new oversight of its Middle Eastern, South Asian and African Studies departments. Tony Chan, the former president of Hong Kong University of Science and Technology and a former faculty dean at UCLA, has experience in both university systems. He told me what he is seeing now in the US is worse than anything he ever saw in China. “We used to be able to clearly say that US universities were independent of the politicians. That was the advantage of the American academic system,” Chan told me. “I cannot say that any more.”
In both China and the US, Zhu has a reputation as a tough academic adviser, with strict intellectual orthodoxies. According to his current students in Beijing, he has a go-to refrain, now immortalised as a gif that circulates in their group chats: “If you do that again, you will be dismissed!” Zhu is not, in other words, easily swayed. So when OpenAI unveiled ChatGPT in 2022, and much of the Chinese tech sector was stunned – one Chinese AI founder admitted he felt “lost” and “couldn’t sleep”, demoralised by the feeling of being bested again by the west – Zhu was untroubled. At an AI panel in early 2023, he avoided any praise for ChatGPT as a technical feat. Large language models, he said, “still fall short” of AGI because they do not “have the ability to understand or align with human values”.
Later that year, Mumford, the professor who Zhu credits with changing his life by admitting him to Harvard, travelled to Beijing to receive a maths prize. He was in his 80s and had been retired for nearly a decade. Were it not for the chance to “find out what Song-Chun was doing”, Mumford told me, he likely wouldn’t have made the trip. The two share a close bond, and used to meet regularly at Zhu’s lab in UCLA. In Zhu’s office at Peking University, there is a framed letter from Mumford to Zhu in which he wrote: “I feel that you are truly my intellectual heir.”
A humanoid robot shakes hands with a journalist at the Zhongguancun Forum in Beijing, March 2025. Photograph: VCG/Getty Images
They do not agree on everything, however. While Zhu had largely dismissed neural networks, Mumford came to see something profound in their mathematical structure, and he wanted to nudge his old student to reassess his views. “More than anything else,” Mumford told me, “what I was trying to convey was that I felt BigAI had to have a big team working on deep learning techniques in order to be successful.”
In Beijing, Mumford strolled with Zhu through the creeks, willows and paved roads of the Peking University campus, and dined with Zhu’s family. Then Mumford pressed his case. Zhu’s friends and students told me that it appears to have worked – somewhat. He has allowed his students to experiment with transformers – the most advanced neural network architecture – on some tasks. Researchers who once sneaked neural networks into their projects like contraband say they can use them more openly. Zhu is “by far the most brilliant student in computer vision I ever had”, Mumford later told me. And yet “it took him a long time to see that deep learning was doing tremendous things. I feel that was a major mistake of his.”
Nevertheless, neural networks will always play a circumscribed role in Zhu’s vision of AGI. “It’s not that we reject these methods,” Zhu told me. “What we say is they have their place.”
One Saturday morning in March, Zhu invited me to an annual tech forum in Beijing where BigAI was showcasing its latest technology. A robot dog pranced around the conference building as onlookers shouted commands (“Sit. Sit! I said SIT DOWN!”). Nearby, children clustered around a spindly mechanical arm playing the strategy game Go. Outside the main hall, a humanoid female head with almond-coloured eyes stared blankly into the crowd. When visitors approached, it scanned their faces. Soon, its silicone skin began to twitch, contorting into facial expressions that mimicked theirs.
At the previous year’s tech forum, BigAI had unveiled a virtual humanoid child named TongTong, who, they hoped, would have capabilities that most AIs lack. Researchers widely agree that commonsense intuitions about how the physical and social world work are among the hardest things for neural networks to grasp. As LeCun recently put it: “We have LLMs that can pass the bar exam, so they must be smart. But then they can’t learn to drive in 20 hours like any 17-year-old, they can’t learn to clear up the dinner table, or fill in the dishwasher like any 10-year-old can in one shot. Why is that? What are we missing?” TongTong wasn’t ready to practise law, but it seemed to be able to load a dishwasher. It was designed to mimic the cognitive and emotional capacities of a three- to four-year-old child.
This year, the BigAI team was debuting TongTong 2.0, which they claim has the capabilities of a five- or six-year-old. On a large video screen, TongTong 2.0 took the form of an animated girl playing in a virtual living room. At the front of the conference room, a BigAI engineer was going through a live demonstration of TongTong’s abilities. When the engineer asked TongTong to work with her friend LeLe, another AI agent, to find a toy, TongTong appeared to avoid areas her friend had already searched. Later, when TongTong was asked to retrieve a TV remote from a bookshelf that was out of reach, she used a cushion to give herself an extra boost. (When prompting ChatGPT to do similar tasks, researchers have found it to be an “inexperienced commonsense problem solver”. Zhu believes that this weakness is not one that deep learning systems such as ChatGPT will be able to overcome.)
For now, TongTong exists only as a software operating within a simulated environment, rather than a 3D robot in the physical world. After the presentation, BigAI announced several partnerships with robotics companies. A crucial test of Zhu’s technology will be whether it can exist as an embodied system and still perform the reasoning and planning he ascribes so much weight to.
Before the presentation, Zhu had arrived at the podium in a blue blazer to deliver a keynote. He began by contrasting his own AI philosophy with what he called the “Silicon Valley narrative”, that AGI could be attained through more data and computing power. The Chinese media, the public and government agencies had been sold a false narrative, one that had spawned a profusion of vacuous Chinese “AI institutes” and inflated startup valuations, as he put it in a written version of the speech published later. One consequence of this misdirection was that it had convinced the Chinese that they were victims of the west’s “stranglehold”, or kabozi, a term that has come to refer to the US’s export controls to China on high-end computer chips. To Zhu, the key factor holding back AI progress is not insufficient computing power, but a misguided approach to the whole subject. What had started as an academic feud conducted in conferences and peer review journals now seemed to be entangled in an epoch-defining contest for technological supremacy.
Zhu is remarkably consistent in his views, but the way he frames his message has shifted over the years. In his speech, his rhetoric occasionally echoed that of party officials, who issue warnings not to follow the west on issues such as free trade and human rights. China, Zhu said, needed to “resist blindly following” the Silicon Valley narrative and develop its own “self-sufficient” approach to AI. (“The officials really like how he frames things,” one of his former students told me.) And yet in my four meetings with Zhu, he struck me as more intensely animated by the stakes of his intellectual quarrels than by international competition between the two countries where he had each spent exactly half his life. In service of his ambitions, he had learned to speak the Communist party’s vernacular.
By the time I left Zhu’s courtyard residence, it was the late afternoon. The sun had slanted below the rooftops, setting the magnolia blossoms aglow in a wash of pink. Zhu accompanied me back to the lattice fence that marked the entrance to his office. He wanted to reiterate that politics was not what was motivating him. “Over the last 30 years, I’ve been focused on one thing. It’s the unified theory of AI. To build understanding. That’s my only drive,” he told me. He brought up his research with Mumford again. “The Harvard and Brown school” of computer science, Zhu said, proudly. “That’s what we’re carrying on here.”
This article was supported by a grant from the Tarbell Center
OTTAWA, CANADA, Sept. 15, 2025 (GLOBE NEWSWIRE) — Trading Central, a pioneer in financial market research and insights, announced the launch of FIBI, AI Assistant, across its suite of research tools: Technical Insight®, TC Options Insight™, TC Fundamental Insight®, and TC Market Buzz®.
FIBI™ (‘Financial Insight Bot Interface’) leverages Trading Central’s proprietary natural language processing (NLP), language model (LM), and generative AI (GenAI) technologies—trained by the company’s award-winning data scientists and financial analysts. These models are grounded in deep expertise across technical and fundamental analysis, options trading, and market behavior.
FIBI sets itself apart from generic AI and chatbots with actionable and compliance-friendly market insights powered by high-quality, real-time data. Its natural language storytelling and progressive disclosure of key insights ensure that investors of all skill-levels benefit from quality analysis without the information overload.
“FIBI represents the next generation of investor enablement,” said Alain Pellier, CEO of Trading Central. “In a world flooded with generic AI content, FIBI offers a focused, trustworthy experience that’s built for action.”
With FIBI, brokers can deliver a differentiated client experience — empowering investors with a tool that feels insightful, approachable and personalized, while strengthening trust in their research offering.
FIBI continues Trading Central’s mission to empower investors worldwide, bridging the gap between sophisticated analysis and actionable insights.
Since 1999, Trading Central has empowered investors to make confident decisions with actionable, award-winning research. By combining expert insights with modern data visualizations, Trading Central helps investors discover trade ideas, manage risk, and identify new opportunities. Its flexible tools are designed for seamless integration across desktop and mobile platforms via iFrames, APIs, and widgets.